tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post1122404852540484464..comments2023-12-29T04:36:07.964-04:00Comments on Square 8: Privilege: Edited DocumentBevhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06766614739853100172noreply@blogger.comBlogger64125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-69237808761250294492009-08-07T22:00:37.106-04:002009-08-07T22:00:37.106-04:00Cereus Sphinx,
I agree with your assessment. Chec...Cereus Sphinx,<br /><br />I agree with your assessment. Check out number 34 on the new list (just posted!), which is based on your earlier comment.Bevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766614739853100172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-52341225322200013792009-08-07T21:54:55.367-04:002009-08-07T21:54:55.367-04:00I know this is off-topic to what most of you are d...I know this is off-topic to what most of you are discussing, but I still think that there's a hole in the list. <br />There's not much or nothing about having your opinions discounted (because you are assumed to be not understanding things when your opinion differs from someone elses).<br /><br />This also makes it easier for other forms of privilege to continue, because it's basically the same as all the other forms of "not listening to people" that help keep the status quo where it is.<br /><br />Ballastexistenz just wrote a post on a similar topic.<br /><br />If I'm being an overly squeaky wheel let me know. But I think this is important.Cereus Sphinxhttp://cereus-sphinx.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-18512824419914456792009-08-06T10:01:52.749-04:002009-08-06T10:01:52.749-04:00I think categories would be a good idea. Maybe do ...I think categories would be a good idea. Maybe do the education ones first, those that apply to the general autistic community second, and those that only apply to adults third.Sadderbutwisergirlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-19804465596601957602009-08-06T07:48:49.707-04:002009-08-06T07:48:49.707-04:00I suggest also a link or two to other essays on wh...I suggest also a link or two to other essays on what privilege is and isn't. Seems to me I've seen some essay somewhere, either linked from Amanda's blog site or linked from something else she linked to (or possibly from Ettina's blog site) ... explaining how you can have one kind of privilege without necessarily having another kind of privilege, etc. that might be worth linking to. Unfortunately I can't remember where I saw this. (Sorry. Not very helpful I know.) This kind of link might be helpful for people who are convinced that privilege is some kind of "all or nothing" baggage where being in one marginalized population automatically takes away all the privilege they would otherwise have. <br /><br />Like Amanda, I don't find it that difficult a concept to grasp that, even though I lack certain types of privilege that hearing people have, or that heterosexual people have, I DO still have certain OTHER types related to skin color, class, etc. But it is clear that some people do struggle with this concept. <br /><br />Sometimes, I suspect that this may actually be fear talking. One experience that I think many people across all marginalized populations experience is that the rest of the world not only fails to *notice* the discrimination we face but fails to even *<b>recognize</b>* certain aspects of our experience *<b>AS</b>* discrimination even when it is pointed out to them. That can get enormously frustrating, not to mention dis-invalidating (I've certainly been there). I suspect some people respond to that frustration by instinctively trying to emphasize just how bad their marginalization really is in an attempt to break through this kind of obliviousness. (Unfortunately, I suspect this is a strategy that probably usually fails.) The very suggestion that maybe they still experience certain types of privilege, even while simultaneously being denied many other types of privilege, I think may increase their fear that their own experience is now being further marginalized and invisibilized.<br /><br />If they're very strongly entrenched in this fear then just one or two essays on how people can be both privileged (in certain specific contexts) and marginalized (in certain other specific contexts) at the same time, etc ... will not do much. But not all people are going to be emotionally in the same place at the same time: where some people aren't going to be ready to hear the message, others will, and for them, a few links to appropriate essays on the topic of having both privilege and non-privilege simultaneously might be helpful.<br /><br />3. For people who are struggling with the idea of intersecting privilege/marginalization at a purely conceptual level (and I suspect some people are), maybe it would help to have a line clarifying that probably no single neurotypical/nonautistic/neuroconvergent/whoever person is going to experience EVERY single privilege on the list (perhaps precisely because they may belong to certain marginalized populations that undercut a few specific items on the list), but that most probably do experience at least a few of them. Similarly, some autistic people who experience many types of privilege in other aspects (such as class privilege, white privilege, etc) may find that these privileges help blunt the potential force of certain specific types of discrimination that other Autistic people without those privileges may experience more harshly, even if other types of discrimination are not as alleviated for them.<br /><br />Just some thoughts from a non-autistic (but, as a person with ADD, not quite neurotypical) Deaf bisexual woman. Hope I haven't talked too much!Andrea S.http://wecando.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-11213273020058362772009-08-06T07:47:59.023-04:002009-08-06T07:47:59.023-04:00I like the idea of organizing the list into subhea...I like the idea of organizing the list into subheads/categories like the gentile list. 50 items gets a little long, but if they were divided up into a few separate clusters then it might not feel quite as long.<br /><br />I suggest it also can be worth continuing to polish/ refine/ amplify the introductory text emphasizing that discussing privilege is not about apportioning blame or making people feel guilt.<br /><br />I agree it isn't worth writing reams of text defending the concept of privilege. People who only want to listen if people in marginalized populations are "very very very nice to them" probably aren't that serious about wanting to listen in the first place. But the whole concept of "privilege" is still very new for many people and seems to trigger a lot of misunderstanding, so it's still worth a paragraph or two to address it.Andrea S.http://wecando.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-87915118694506831562009-08-05T19:12:53.124-04:002009-08-05T19:12:53.124-04:00They're called university degrees up here in C...They're called university degrees up here in Canada. And if we had more of the right research, maybe it wouldn't be so mysterious.Anemonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388335557538267054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-45012346042284613072009-08-05T19:08:27.275-04:002009-08-05T19:08:27.275-04:00"Ah, but when you're autistic, your paren..."Ah, but when you're autistic, your parents can completely disown you, provide you with absolutely no support, even if they're very rich, and everyone sympathizes with them. Actually, if they don't like you, and if they're rich enough, they can have you locked up in an institution even if you aren't autistic (or anything else) - or so the stereotype goes. Dunno if it's still true or not.<br /><br />Put a tick in the poor and pro ND column for me, please."<br /><br />Says the woman with three college degrees who for some mysterious reason can't hold a job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-12714012766179821212009-08-05T16:23:55.543-04:002009-08-05T16:23:55.543-04:00Some of these statements are too broad. In general...Some of these statements are too broad. In general, claiming that "everybody" or "nobody" is risky.<br /><br />6 is almost too specific, which is weird because that's the opposite of how I feel about a lot of things. ;p<br /><br />11 and 12 can be merged. "Taxpayers or families" works just as well.<br /><br /><br />15 How about adding "or with my parents?"<br /><br />31 really doesn't come off as that compelling. Yeah, it sucks that people say things like that, but it's kind of part of a bigger issue, or maybe I just don't like the wording. "Healthy" is just such a vague term and there are other things it could mean besides NT. Maybe something like "People don't say that being NT is worse than having cancer." Or maybe just a life-threatening diseases in general. Some parents think that forgoing MMR vaccines and letting kids get preventable diseases is seen as preferable to letting their kids have autism. (There's no link, of course, but that's still what people like that think.)<br /><br />34 Well, if you're not autistic, I don't think it's automatically true that people think they should be like you.<br /><br />35 is....What??? I just don't get it. If you "lack a conscience," you're probably not seen as "neurotypical." I'm not saying you'd be autistic, but that's not seen as normal, so if you are trying to be more broad than just speaking about autism, that just doesn't make any sense.<br /><br />40 That's not necessarily true. It's possible for people to think you're obsessed with something without assuming that you're autistic, and <i>that's</i> what the real problem is. Having your interests reduced to "perseverations" that you have because you're autistic is the issue.<br /><br />I hate to say it, but I'm beginning to wonder if this format is really worth sticking with. Maybe break it into subsections like that Gentile privileged list linked to before. I keep wanting to say something like "If a parent of a child like me says that living with me is nightmarish, they're not defended for 'just being honest'" but I'm not sure that's worth knocking some of these other points off the list for. Still, it's a pressing issue...Quijotescahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04484926878532188588noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-745945920939080452009-08-05T12:07:49.434-04:002009-08-05T12:07:49.434-04:00I have Aspbergers. I have five children that are a...I have Aspbergers. I have five children that are all on the spectrum with different labels. I just found your blog. I am a little overwhelmed by it, but I love the way it is written so I will figure it out. Thanks for your work.Shantelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12960749546768414680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-87146571322806803872009-08-05T11:27:27.146-04:002009-08-05T11:27:27.146-04:00Ah, but when you're autistic, your parents can...Ah, but when you're autistic, your parents can completely disown you, provide you with absolutely no support, even if they're very rich, and everyone sympathizes with them. Actually, if they don't like you, and if they're rich enough, they can have you locked up in an institution even if you aren't autistic (or anything else) - or so the stereotype goes. Dunno if it's still true or not.<br /><br />Put a tick in the poor and pro ND column for me, please.Anemonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07388335557538267054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-27085666525959498722009-08-05T11:20:21.168-04:002009-08-05T11:20:21.168-04:00"7. I am never told that I should not have ch..."7. I am never told that I should not have children, lest I pass on the genes that cause them to be like me."<br /><br />Poor people are told that.<br /><br />I'm female, poor and autistic. I sometimes wonder if being black would've been an advantage or disadvantage for me. If I was I could add racism to my list but I could also get free money for college.<br /><br />I'm pretty convinced that class privilege is a major aspect of "Neurodiversity." Not everyone, such as myself, can afford support, treatment, healthcare, etc. Not everyone can have their parents advocate for them because they have to work.<br /><br />When parents cannot afford to keep their autistic child at home, a child that injures herself, is violent and etc. than they send them to a state institution because they cannot afford support.<br /><br />Class privilege has much more to do with this than most realize, I think. Being poor I can speak from experience because I do NOT have the same privileges that I see with most (almost all) who support ND.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12540927559726674184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-41667096149697786252009-08-04T12:08:20.353-04:002009-08-04T12:08:20.353-04:00I have to admit being a little confused by people ...I have to admit being a little confused by people bringing up class privilege. It seems obvious to me that many areas of oppression overlap in their effects on people, and that it's beyond the scope of a list that deals with one area of oppression, to deal with every other area as well.<br /><br />It also seems to me that, for instance, if someone is autistic <em>and</em> a person of color, then they are going to deal with oppression that white autistic people do not deal with. <br /><br />I especially thought of this when someone autistic said, somewhere, "I'd always wondered where my white male privilege went. Now I know." And I wanted to say, but didn't have the words at the time, "Well you probably <em>do</em> still have privilege that, say, a black female autistic person does not have. Being autistic doesn't mean you forfeit other areas of privilege, it just means you don't have certain kinds of disability-based privilege."<br /><br />And I think I've read before about how many people who lack one kind of privilege, tend to hang onto that really tightly in discussions of the kinds of privilege they <em>do</em> have. So people will insist, for instance, that racism is all a class issue, or that class is "more important" in some hierarchy than race, because they don't want to think about the fact that they do in fact have white privilege. It's probably not consciously done to derail, but it ends up having that effect if it's held to stubbornly enough.<br /><br />(I don't fully understand this. It seems obvious to me that I have white privilege, some forms of class privilege, and some forms of able-bodied privilege, while lacking 'neurotypical' privilege, other forms of class privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, and other forms of able-bodied privilege. It's not an either-or thing where when you lack one kind you automatically are the same as people who lack another kind. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something.)Amandahttp://ballastexistenz.autistics.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-44278756938499365432009-08-03T18:09:52.245-04:002009-08-03T18:09:52.245-04:00I've sit and quietly read 45 emails, one each ...I've sit and quietly read 45 emails, one each time a new post is made. This has been an interesting conversation.<br /><br />Bev, please use neurotypical. It's easy to understand. It's not offensive. I think everyone is reading too much into it, and just arguing semantics. It's the most descriptive and understandable word or phrase available.<br /><br />Arguing about something that little can keep this wonderful list from being finalized. Let it go and be happy :)Jaden Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16980171273432869300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-29407970698496543642009-08-03T17:28:17.203-04:002009-08-03T17:28:17.203-04:00I now think that a "default neurology" w...I now think that a "default neurology" would be the best choice, as "neuroconvergent" confuses so many people. <br /><br />If the word "neurotypical" is ultimately chosen, it should be made clear that it doesn't refer to a single neurotype, but to a neurology that meets the expected standards. Otherwise, I bet a lot of people will come up and say things like "But I think in pictures/can concentrate for ten hours long/am highly gifted in mathematics/whatever cognitive quirk you want" without understanding that no matter how weird their neurological functioning can be, it isn't necessarily disabling in our present society. (Yes, I have already seen some folks reacting that way to the word "neurotypical". And this is not surprising as this word clearly implies there's a norm when it comes to the human brain.) <br /> <br />"They ought to know we don't think they're all exactly the same in neurology"<br />This is isn't necessarily self-evident. If I google "neurotypical", the first definition I come up with is : <br /><br />"Neurotypical (or NT) is a term that was coined in the autistic community as a label for people who are not on the autism spectrum:[1] specifically, neurotypical people have neurological development and states that are consistent with what most people would perceive as normal, particularly in regards to their ability to process linguistic information and social cues.[2] The concept was later adopted by both the neurodiversity movement and the scientific community." (Wikipedia) <br /><br />If someone has an amazing memory or knows how to read by age three , s/he doesn't have a neurological development that's consistent with the norm, possibly in an obvious way. S/he is not NT according to the definition [1]. And yet, this doesn't make this person disabled in any way. <br /><br />Word verification : "lists" ;)Oktarinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11987793434957471012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-30096651598716511172009-08-03T16:59:34.617-04:002009-08-03T16:59:34.617-04:00I think current numbers 16 and 41 adequately cover...I think current numbers 16 and 41 adequately cover my former #67. Regarding the title, I'm used to neurotypical as non-autistic. I can see "non-diagnosed" but am confident that we've all had problems on this list before receiving our various diagnoses. "Non-diagnosable" might be better but I'm also confident that some psychologists could fit anyone into the DSM. Apologies for lack of clear resolution.<br /><br />Thanks again for your spearheading this, Bev.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03586375909396491857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-80385641315486879152009-08-03T16:04:19.410-04:002009-08-03T16:04:19.410-04:00Evonne: "The more I think about it, though, i...Evonne: "The more I think about it, though, it seems to me that that fear is sort of holding the message hostage. If the majority says “We’ll listen to what you people have to say . . . but only if you’re very very very nice to us and don’t hurt our feelings,” that really makes me wonder how much they really planned on listening in the first place."<br /><br />After reading through all the comments again and thinking about it for a long time, I'm now actually thinking 'neurotypical' is the best way to go. If needed, you could put in a reminder that we don't just mean autistics when we say non-NT, that NT doesn't refer to everyone who isn't autistic, but to a smaller group.<br /><br />I think it does stem from fear, at least in part, and like Amanda said, privilige at work, that we don't want to use it for the chance that it might hurt feelings.<br /><br />Other than that, if people get offended at the term if it's used to signify them, why? They ought to know we don't think they're all exactly the same in neurology, or that we think they're all boring or whatever. After all, do we think that they think *we're* all the same (ok, yeah, some do, just look at the (extended) list)? But we have a lable, or a group of ones that fall under another common lable again. They can get over us needing something to describe them by here that doesn't become 3 sentences long or totally unknown. If they can accept their privilige, NT should be a small thing to get over. I can understand (heck, if not us, then who?) that it might not be nice to have your self suddenly referred to by some lable, especially one that sounds like it might mean you're boring or all the same somehow, but really...<br /><br />And something I learned from the other lists: the majority doesn't get to decide what terms we use. So that just leaves internal debate.Norahhttp://blogwithoutatopic.web-log.nlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-75332106329257374722009-08-03T15:32:19.098-04:002009-08-03T15:32:19.098-04:00Very good list!
I think that something like
&quo...Very good list!<br /><br />I think that something like<br /><br />"If my sexual orientation, gender identity, lifestyle preferences or beliefs are deemed nonstandard, others will not suggest that I am pretending, incorrect, jumping the gun or unable to really know such things about myself because I am neurotypical. They will not use my neurotypical status as a basis for defending intolerant remarks or beliefs about any of these identities." <br />or<br />"My opinions on social mores and societal issues will never be dismissed based on my neurology or on the assumption that I am simply "not understanding how these things work". Even when others of differing neurology agree with me"<br /><br />should be included.<br /><br />I'm not sure exactly what, if anything I'd take out though.Cereus Sphinxhttp://cereus-sphinx.livejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-72429037696037980382009-08-03T14:06:01.779-04:002009-08-03T14:06:01.779-04:00Sarah,
Thank you! I had never seen that list befor...Sarah,<br />Thank you! I had never seen that list before, or considered the possibility of that sort of format. It is worth considering, for sure.<br /><br />Thanks also for the insight into "gentile" and "goy." I have to admit, I had only ever thought of the word "goy" as at least slightly derogatory. Hearing that it isn't only used that way allowed me to think about "neurotypical" in a different way. For me, it is a neutral term. Some non-autistics have only seen it used as an insult, and it isn't their fault for misunderstanding.<br /><br />Rather than saying "but I've always heard...," I took your explanation of "goy" seriously, investigated it a bit more, then shifted my understanding to conform with the new knowledge. It isn't my word to define, after all. It applies to me, but is not <i>for</i> me.Bevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766614739853100172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-42212588983224743972009-08-03T13:42:37.056-04:002009-08-03T13:42:37.056-04:00Anonymous,
Thanks for the clarifications. I do be...Anonymous,<br /><br />Thanks for the clarifications. I do believe that you are trying to be helpful in pointing out something that will contribute to resistance. For the record, I don't see NT as synonymous with boring at all. Sometimes I wish the word "normal" hadn't acquired so many negative connotations. As Evonne recently pointed out to me, it is supposed to refer to distance from "the norm" which is a value free concept. But the baggage that goes with "normal" can't be removed.<br /><br />As much as I don't want to engage in a false dichotomy or "us versus them" mentality, the important thing to me right now is this:<br /><br />We can go on and on about every problem with every word, and possibly, in time, the perfect solution will rise to the surface. Or it might not. In which case, this project never gets finished for fear of choosing wrong in deciding which group of people we most want not to offend. That can't happen, you see. It's exactly the sort of thing that happens all the time, little by little. That's why I'm leaning toward keeping "neurotypical" and adding more explanation/disclaimer to the article. As Amanda said, it seems to be the best of a bunch of less than ideal choices.<br /><br />Still, I am open to hearing other suggestions on this. Including yours, if you have one.Bevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766614739853100172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-89695545913149611112009-08-03T13:37:02.629-04:002009-08-03T13:37:02.629-04:00I guess that raises the question (and believe me, ...I guess that raises the question (and believe me, it's been on our minds throughout) of whether we want to soften up the language so as to help readers be more receptive to it, or whether we want to say what needs to be said. The fact that people might take offense—or pretend to take offense— to “neurotypical” has been acknowledged from the beginning. This list, its introduction, and nearly every piece of communication surrounding them have been fashioned with that potential in mind. We certainly don’t want to turn readers off to the point that they will dismiss the message. The authors (and indeed, just about any autistic blogger who writes with the intention of positively educating the public) have spent lots of time deleting/omitting/restructuring language for that very reason. It naturally doesn’t do us any good to try to reach an audience by offending them. <br /><br />The more I think about it, though, it seems to me that that fear is sort of holding the message hostage. If the majority says “We’ll listen to what you people have to say . . . but only if you’re very very very nice to us and don’t hurt our feelings,” that really makes me wonder how much they really planned on listening in the first place.evonnenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-48794066323360968722009-08-03T13:36:44.859-04:002009-08-03T13:36:44.859-04:00I share many of these reservations about the word ...I share many of these reservations about the word "neurotypical." One thing which has helped me in understanding the word's usage has been to compare it to another word used by a group I belong to, that being the word "gentile" (non-Jewish) and its Yiddish equivalent, "goy." Both words denote not being a part of a particular group, but don't necessarily indicate that all non-members are the same. Neither word is inherently derogatory (IMO), but can on occasion be used in a derogatory manner. (But <i>any</i> word <i>can</i> be used in a derogatory manner, so a few derogatory uses of the word indicate nothing about the word's validity.)<br /><br />With that in mind, I think this "Gentile Privilege List" could provide a useful model for formatting an NT privilege list:<br /><br />http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2009/01/26/a-gentile-privilege-checklist/<br /><br />It's set up to include privileges which are specific to those who are white and/or Christian in the U.S., and also to include privileges which are more generally bestowed upon all non-Jews. Similarly, I think some of the privileges on this list are extended to (virtually) all non-autistic people, while others are only experienced by more-or-less NT people, or nondisabled people more generally.<br /><br />I hope this makes sense. I think the final version of this list should acknowledge the inadequacies of the NT terminology, but without overwhelming the list itself. I agree with Amanda and evonne about the potentially derailing effects of indulging the being-called-NT-as-an-insult tact.Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00313619400997453196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-37568294598977919792009-08-03T13:09:31.545-04:002009-08-03T13:09:31.545-04:00Bev, I should have read your intro more carefully....Bev, I should have read your intro more carefully. I'm glad you acknowledged class privilege. <br /><br />Evonne, this statement; "Meaning, if you're cool with the concept of neurodiversity, your brain probably *isn't* quite as typical as the brains of most. Maybe you're the type to think "normal" is boring. But really, truly, it does boil down to semantics." actually cuts to the core about what irritates me about how the term "neuro-typical" is used within discussion such as these. There often seems to be the assumption that NTs are boring and conventional--unable to think outside the box, and that extraordinary personality traits are markers of neuro-atypicality. For the record, I've never met anyone who I found boring once I got to know them, either on or off the spectrum.<br /><br />I think the list you have here is a very good description of the privations that autistic people endure, as much as I'm able to judge as a non-autistic. Given my discomfort with the concept of neuro-typicality, I'm still not sure how much it describes privileges enjoyed by all, or even a majority of non-autistics. I've certainly benefited from a number of the privileges on this list, but I also haven't benefited from a decent number of them, and I would guess this would be true for most non-autistic people.<br /><br />My point in posting though wasn't to highjack what seems to be a productive discussion, with a debate about whether there is such a thing as neuro-typicality. Rather, I wished to suggest that if someone like me is a turned off by the term neuro-typical, then then the language used in the list might undermine its effectiveness in garnering understanding from "NTs". Whether this is a problem I guess depends on who your intended audience is. If it is mainly a document for the autistic community, then I would guess that NT works fine, but if it is intended to reach autistics and non-autistics alike, then the term might be problematic. Of course, I don't claim to speak for all non-autistics, and I admit the possibility that I could just be too sensitive.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-88743984463115042062009-08-03T12:05:18.387-04:002009-08-03T12:05:18.387-04:00Anonymous,
Far from denying that class privilege ...Anonymous,<br /><br />Far from denying that class privilege exists, I mentioned it in the introduction to the list. I also wrote:<br /><br />"Privilege is not, in itself, a terrible thing. Having any form of privilege does not make you a bad person. Just about everyone has some form of privilege. (No, that doesn’t mean it all somehow “balances out.”)"<br /><br />It is impossible to say that one privilege trumps another or imply that no member of a disadvantaged group benefits from membership in another advantaged group. I suspect we are in agreement about class privilege; it is a huge issue, and its implications for people on the spectrum is important. <br /><br />This list, however, is focused on bad things that do not automatically happen to people because of being NT or non-autistic or whatever. For example:<br /><br />7. I am never told that I should not have children, lest I pass on the genes that cause them to be like me.<br /><br />Of course not everyone who is not autistic has this benefit. Other people with disabilities or conditions are told this all the time. The point is, they are not told this because of being NT. And autistic people are told this because of being autistic. <br /><br />The intersection of disadvantaged groups is a huge topic, and can only be acknowledged, not thoroughly addressed in this article. I hope to be writing more about it in the future.Bevhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06766614739853100172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-55691606450690252012009-08-03T12:04:54.972-04:002009-08-03T12:04:54.972-04:00Huh. Anonymous, I composed that last comment witho...Huh. Anonymous, I composed that last comment without having read yours. Interesting.<br /><br />I agree that class, etc. comes into play for non-autistic people. Of course it does. So does race, gender, the experiences of the person making the judgment, etc. It's all entertwined. But note that autistics also come from different classes, races, etc. Sometimes (most times) it's hard to pinpoint the basis of discrimination, or even whether discrimination is occurring. In most cases it's a very mucky area and very hard to make a judgment call, and to determine whether or not it's safe to "cry privilege". And that in part complicates the power heirarchy even more. People of minority groups run into situations on a daily basis where they have to sort of restrain themselves . . . situations in which they suspect they're experiencing discrimination but can't exactly prove it, so they sort of have to swallow it and deal with it. That takes a toll just as much as trying extra hard to smile does. There is in fact danger of coming off as "too sensitive" or "the angry minority" by outwardly expressing offense at every single situation in which discrimination is suspected. And that's, well . . . that's another example of the privileged group being able to turn privilege around.<br /><br />I maintain that autistics etc. are a distinct group who are, um, for lack of a better word, entitled, because of the shared experiences/characteristics of the group, to a list re: privilege. There are many other groups that face discrimination, and they often overlap, but they still can has list.<br /><br />Re "neurotypical" once more: Yes, it is problematic. And I suspect it's often even more acutely problematic for people who tend to be "cool" with the concept of neurodiversity/whateveryouwannacallit -- because the people who are "cool" with it, I suspect, tend to think of themselves as having a mindset that sort of transcends the norm -- and they/you do, indeed. Meaning, if you're cool with the concept of neurodiversity, your brain probably *isn't* quite as typical as the brains of most. Maybe you're the type to think "normal" is boring. But really, truly, it does boil down to semantics.evonnenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794893825407092443.post-7165005237976369162009-08-03T11:46:06.086-04:002009-08-03T11:46:06.086-04:00YES re: being able to turn privilege around. It in...YES re: being able to turn privilege around. It in fact connects quite often to the argument over "neurotypical". I've seen people hijack entire threads to talk about how they're offended (and I suspect they're mostly just pretending to be offended) at the use of the word. It very effectively derails what should have been a very important conversation.evonnenoreply@blogger.com